【 Quora 】:联合国其它国家为何不承认加泰罗尼亚独立?

12-30 45 23452 凌☆♂宇
原创翻译:龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com 翻译:凌☆♂宇 转载请注明出处

Since Catalonia is "independent", why isn't it recognised by any UN state?

【 Quora 】:联合国其它国家为何不承认加泰罗尼亚独立?

原创翻译:龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com 翻译:凌☆♂宇 转载请注明出处

Because objectively, the separatists’ methods of achieving “independence” is in direct contravention of the UN’s 4 fundamental principles. These principles are:
Peace and Security
Human Rights
Rule of Law
Now let’s look at the situation in Spain. Spain is a peaceful country. In 2017 according to the Global Peace Index, Spain was ranked 23rd most peaceful country in the world, higher than the likes of France, UK and the USA. Spain is secure and is not at war with any other country as of 2017. Spain is a decmoract and free country ever since 1978 and is member of the EU which means it is a signatory of the EU Charter of Human Rights. Ever since its accession into the EU, Spain has respected this Charter and has not violated any of its clauses. Spain is a strong democracy with strong rule of law and its citizens look to the State to maintain the rule of law for all. Everyone in Spain is equal in front of the law, no matter your ethnicity, wealth, gender etc; justice is blind in Spain as it is in most other stable developed democracies. And finally, Spain is committed to ensuring all its citizens can have the best footing and standard of living within its borders providing world class essential services such as universal healthcare and education.

现在我们来看看西班牙的情况。西班牙是一个和平的国家。 2017年,根据“全球和平指数”,西班牙排名世界第23位,远高于法国,英国和美国。西班牙是安全的,到2017年还没有与任何其他国家发生过战争。自1978年以来,西班牙是一个十分自由的国家,是欧盟成员,同时它也是“欧盟人权宪章”的签署国。自从加入欧盟以来,西班牙一直遵守“宪章”,没有违反任何条款。西班牙是一个强有力的法治民主国家,其公民期待国家维护所有人的法治。西班牙的每个人在法律面前都是平等的,无论你的种族,财富,性别等等。西班牙的正义是盲目的(译者加:表示无论是谁,不会徇私枉法,公平公正,源自古希腊神话菲蜜丝Themis正义女神),正如在大多数其他稳定发达的民主国家一样。最后,西班牙致力于确保所有公民在其境内拥有最好的生活水平,提供世界级的基本服务,如全民医疗和教育。

So what of the Catalan independence? Well firstly, Catalonia as a part of Spain, means that the UN pillars are observed and respected within Catalonia. The Catalans are not persecuted and are free to participate in the process of law making and governing of the nation through their democratically elected Congreso de Diputados. Further, Catalans have a high degree of autonomy, expressed through their regional Generalitat . Now being a part of a democracy means that there are rules that every citizen must abide by, the ultimate of which is the Constitution. The Constitution of Spain is considered perfectly aligned with the fundamental democratic principles of expression and liberties, otherwise the EU would have never accepted Spain. This Constitution, explicitly prohibits any action from being taken that will (or intend to) threaten the territorial integrity of Spain. So the Catalan separatists, by proceeding with a vote that was deemed unconstitutional and illegal and by bulldozing the elected members of the Generalitat as well as organising a completely corrupt vote as violated the UN’s 3 fundamental principle: the Rule of Law.



How would their opinion matter to define what would be real or not ?
In this map, only the states in blue acknowledge Taiwan (Republic of China):
The UN, when it was created, gave a Security Council seat to the Republic of China… it’s still written in the UN charter. Now, the seat was given to the People’s Republic of China. President De Gaulle of France once called it “le machin” (the thing). He had no special consideration for it. The UN simply does not matter and today even less than in 1945.


So in the end, it’s simply a game of power, as usual, and even within the UN itself. Catalonia will be considered independent if someday it manages to project enough strength, and it won’t until it won’t.
It doesn’t even matter how they get independence. They could be a 5 % minority that rule the entire state. If they are able to impose their rule, they win. It could be an insurrection. If they are able to impose their rule, they win. The Spanish Constitution doesn’t matter; if they are able to make it null de facto, they win. Even Haiti was acknowledged eventually. Even the USSR was acknowledged eventually. Very reluctantly, but it was.

他们如何获得独立并不重要。他们可能只是统治整个国家的5%的少数派。如果他们能够强加他们的独立统治,他们就赢了。这可能是一场起义。如果他们能够做到加强他们独立事实,他们就赢了。西班牙宪法没有关系,因为独立事实可以把宪法变成空的,他们就赢了。甚至海地也最终得到承认。甚至苏联最终也被承认了。虽然说出来很不情愿,但事实就是如此 。

What matters is: who rules?
What people thinks about the does not.
What laws, conventions, treaties say do not.
The way rule is obtained does not either.
The form of the regime does not matter either. People have no reluctance at all dealing with authoritarian regimes. Human rights are an elastic concept.
The world respects power. When you have power, doors are opened, crimes are forgotten, laws are arranged, and so on. This is why “of course” Taiwan does not exist. You don’t get business opportunities from China when Taiwan exists, so it does not.


…and yet, on the ground, when you go there, something exists. Things do not wait to be acknowledged to exist. This is why ordinary world maps are deceiving if you take them seriously. Look at the world beyond them.
Perhaps Catalonia exists. You would simply not be aware. You don’t need the opinion of the UN states to make yourself an idea about it. Go visit them and decide by yourself. Many things exist in the world, like sovereign indigenous nations, an actual FARC state in Colombia, like uncontacted tribes that would find Brazil or India’s claim on their territory ridiculous, and so on. There are more intelligents ways at looking at the world than what UN states think.



How about I parallel this with Taiwan. It’s not a country. For such a huge economy and population this is quite insane but that’s how it is. They have the same sort of problems that Catalonia faces:
No one wants to piss off the big trading partner that recognizing Taiwan would piss off (in Taiwan’s case it is mainland China).
Others are consistently anti-separatist.
Others are simply playing realpolitik.


Catalonia is in the same boat. Their declaration of independence is completely irrelevant. The problems are thus:
No state in EU will recognize them because the game of promoting self-determination is a realpolitik war between the EU and Russia. It has nothing to do with caring about human rights. Therefore the sanctity of EU polities must be maintained, while Europe’s enemies must be shattered into a million pieces.
Most of the other European states are staunchly anti-separatist for historical reasons.
Those European states that would be pro-Catalonia do not want to piss off the EU and harm their trade relations.


Canada is staunchly anti-separatist because we have our own separatism problem. We’ve been consistent on this position since forever and the public is hugely in favour of a federalist approach.
USA probably doesn’t give a shit and can’t even find Catalonia on a map.
China is anti-separatist and technically never resolved their civil war. Fat chance of getting them to support Catalonia.
The only places that would support independence are Russia, mid-east non-US allies and probably every country in Africa. Unfortunately, many of those nations are places that Catalans don’t like (Russia or mid-east) or have no relations (much of Africa).


Here’s the thing, a people don’t declare independence because it is easy, they declare it because they believe strongly in their own right for self-determination. The question is whether Catalans are willing to die for independence because anything less will get you worse than nothing. Basque was not that long ago.
I’m a federalist but this is Spain’s (and Catalonia’s) problem to resolve and not for me to decide upon. I can only present to you the stark reality of the politics of the United Nations. It’s not pretty and everyone is playing for keeps.


首页 > 网帖翻译 > 美国
讨论 45


游客 您尚未登录
龙腾网提示: 关闭