【一】鉴于历史上的蒙古王朝(元朝),难道蒙古不应该拥有中国绝大多部分领土么?

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Based on historical claims (Mongoldynasty), shouldn't Mongolia own most of China?

鉴于历史上的蒙古王朝(元朝),难道蒙古不应该拥有中国绝大多部分领土么?

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Ayhan BilgiliAnswered Dec 4,2015Theyshould. And if there is any decency and honesty in world's diplomacy, theyshould get piece of China (Dear Chinese friends, don't be upset, please readfurther please)Israel is established with support from UK,France and Russia. The claim was:Israel belongs to Jewish people as it washistorically their land. Kingdom of Israel existed circa 1000 BC foraround 100 years (after being divided 200 years more) and compared to theempires around, they were very small. Here is a map

AyhanBilgili
他们(蒙古人)应该。而且如果这世界的外交有半点正直和城市的话,他们应该拿下整个中国(亲爱的中国朋友,别沮丧,请看完)
以色列是在英国、法国和俄罗斯的支持下建立起来的。说法是:以色列属于犹太人、因为历史上这里是他们的土地。
以色列王国在公元前1000年存在了大概100年时间(之后分裂了200多年),相比于周围的其他帝国,他们非常小。这是地图:



其中黄色区域就是以色列王国(在他们最强大的时期,也不比今天的以色列更大)。相比于周边其他帝国,他们那时只是一个小王国,通知时间也非常短暂。
现在,我用最简单的逻辑。如果20世纪一个国家宣告并建立了一个国家,就因为2500年前,他们的祖先统治过这片小小的区域,那么蒙古人当然可以声称拥有中国了。同样的,你在地图上可以看到的,在中东非常强大的亚述人,也可以声索他们的土地(他们就是今天的土耳其、叙利亚和伊拉克)。亚述人生活在今天的土耳其人口大概20万左右。
道理就是:如果你有权有钱,有国际支持,你就可以声索你想要的任何他人难以想象的东西。

JC Hóu,studied at National Taiwan UniversityUpdated Jul 29,2017Originally Answered: WouldMongolia claim China's territories based on historical claims just like China?Would Mongolia claim China'sterritories based on historical claims just like China?China claims all of the Mongoliabased on Yuan dynasty(1271–1368) but Mongol Genghis Khan retaliated andoccupied big chunk of China.Invalid question: China DOES NOTclaim all of Mongolia. China acknowledged the independence of Mongolia from day1 of the current regime (PRC) in 1949. Evenduring the bitter Sino-Soviet Split, China never claimed any part of Mongolia,let alone “all of Mongolia”.The “alternative” China, theRepublic of China, on the other hand,initially claimed Mongolia (because Mongolia forcefully broke awayin the 1910s with Russian help), then acknowledged theindependence of Mongolia (according to the Sino-SovietTreaty of Friendship and Alliance signedin 1945),hen claimed Mongolia again(based on the argument that the Soviet Union did not keep its word as agreed inthe treaty) in 1951,hen finally acknowledged theindependence of Mongolia in 2002.o to summarize, the claim that“China claims Mongolia” is simply astonishingly false as of today (July 2017),and I personally think by anonymously asking this question without showingcredible proof for this claim, the OP is deliberating promoting misinformationor anti-China propaganda.I am equally surprised that noneof the other answers I see by far clarified such simple historical facts.It is also noteworthy thatGenghis Khan DID NOT “retaliate” and occupy China “because China claimedMongolia”. I mean seriously, not one bit ofthe above claim makes sense!Genghis Khan occupied part ofChina in his lifetime because he was simply a conqueror with never-endingdesire for land. China back then, the SongEmpire, had trouble dealing with the northernJurchen Jin Empire (1115–1234) andnorthwestern Tangut Western Xia Empireto begin with, so how was China able to claim Mongolia, which it had no borderwith? Genghis Khan did not completely beat China (Song Dynasty) either. He diedhalfway conquering the aforementioned Xia Empire in 1227 (andtold his successors to wipe it out for him, which they faithfully did - sotoday we have big-time problems deciphering the Tangut scripts).he Yuandynasty was established by the GRANDSON ofGenghis Khan, Kublai Khan, in 1271. How could Genghis Khan“retaliate” something that never happened, or happened AFTER HIS DEATH (in analternative timeline)?Geez, at least get the timelineright.

JCHóu 在台湾国立大学读书
“蒙古可以基于历史要求而声索中国领地吗,就像中国所做的那样?
中国声称,整个蒙古都是以元朝为基础,但蒙古的成吉思汗对大块头中国实施了报复和占领。”
这个问题是无效,因为中国没有声索过整个蒙古。中国至1949年以来的当前政权(PRC)都承认蒙古的独立。既然在尖锐的中苏分裂期间,中国也从来没有声索过蒙古任何一部分,蒙古依然是那个蒙古。
“另一个”中国,中华民国:
最初,有声索过蒙古(因为蒙古是在俄罗斯的撺掇下被迫分裂的),
之后是成为蒙古的独立地位(基于《中苏友好同盟条约》,于1945年签署),
之后再次声索过蒙古(基于前苏联在条约中没有信守承诺的说法),那年1951年,
最后于2002年承认了蒙古的独立。
总而言之,所谓的“中国声索蒙古”是一个不可思议的错误(2017年),另外,我个人认为(某人)匿名提出这个问题,但没有提供可信的证据,目的在于加剧误解或反华宣传。
同样令我感到惊讶的是,到目前位置我看过的其他回复里都没人澄清这个简单的历史事实。
同样值得注意的是,成吉思汗并不曾“报复”和占领中国,“就因为中国向蒙古声索领地”。我严肃的说,以上所有的要求/声称都是废话!
成吉思汗在他的一生里占领了部分中国领地,因为他是一位对土地有无尽欲望的征服者。中国那时候是宋帝国,从一开始就与那时候女真族的金帝国(1115-1234)和党项人的西夏帝国有冲突,所以中国哪来的本事声索蒙古的土地?他们之间都没有边境。成吉思汗不曾有彻底击败中国(宋朝)。他死在了征服西夏的途中,那年1227年(成吉思汗告诉他的继承人,为他剿灭西夏,而继承人们也忠实的完成了,所以今天我们破译党项文字的时候遇到巨大障碍)。
元朝是由成吉思汗的孙子忽必烈于1271年建立的。成吉思汗怎么可能“报复”那些从来没发生过的事情,或者在他死后才发生的事情(二选其一的时间线)?
我的老天,(你)至少把时间线理清了再说话。

Chen Haicun, 天下为公,世界大同Answered Dec 11,2015Thenumber of mongolian survyed to be 10,000,000 . There is 6,500,000 ethnic mongolian chinese inChina.There is 2,280,000 mongolian citizens inMongolian nation.Rest are scattered throughout the world.Mongolian Chinese mostly resides in Inner Mongolia. They stillkeep the use of traditional mongolian language and practice tradition duringmajor holidays and festivals. They are the core representation of Mongolianhistory and culture. What is more, they consists 65%, more a third of Mongolianon earth.So to answer your question. Yes, Mongolians owns China, because every single Chinese owns every piece ofChina. They definitely can makes the claim that Mongolia and China are one, andthey do make that claim.

Chen Haicun天下为公,世界大同
蒙古人大概有1000万人口。
其中650万蒙古族人生活在中国境内。
另有228万人生活在外蒙古。
蒙古族中国人绝大多数生活在内蒙古。他们依旧保持这传统蒙文的使用,在主要节日里实践传统文化。他们是蒙古历史和文化的核心代表。更进一步说,他们占了地球上整个蒙古族人的65%。
所以要回答你的问题。
是的,蒙古人拥有中国,因为每个中国人都拥有中国的每个部分。他们直接可以声称蒙古和中国是不可分割的一部分,并且他们能这么做。

Rachel Lai-Smith,studied at University of WaterlooAnswered Jan 11Excellent question. As this is animportant area to understand when studying Asia.
A simple answer to your questionis that Mongolia does not have the power. And why they don’t have the powertoday has myriad of varying reasons.The most important thing is thatthe Mongols prior to their conquest of China and rest of the world did not havea kingdom or a civilization to expand their “identity” and “culture”.The so called Mongols prior totheir rise to power were still in a tribal state, who went by their familyclans and ancestry to identity which tribes were of their descent.Now the idea of “Mongolia” as anation is a very new concept and its fuzzy. That’s because there are moreMongolian identities living in modern China than Mongolia. And from a geneticperspective, the Mongol tribes that were unified under the Mongols haveexpanded far more across the world than anyone else has in history from theAsian continent.But still they do not claim allof those identities as falling under the “Mongol” peoples or a subgroup. Andthere are three reasons to this. No establishment of culture andidentityNo sense of belonging between theso called Mongol tribal ancestryThe modern ethnic gap between theMongol subgroups cannot be closedIt is unlike that of the Europeanwave of migration to the Americas that created independent nations such as USA,Canada, Australia etc.The Mongol conquest failed tothis. But still, from a genetic expansion they succeeded which leaves room forgrowth later.Nations such as Korea and Japanwhom have a strong Proto-Mongol tribal ancestry successfully establishedethnic-nation states right beside China.

RachelLai-Smith 在滑铁卢大学学习
很棒的问题。要理解这个重要领域得等到你学习亚洲的时候。
简单来说,蒙古没那权力发出这样的声明。为何没那权力呢?原因太多太多了。
最重要的原因在于,蒙古在征服中国和世界其他地方之前,没有发展成一个王国或者文明来扩张他们自己的“身份”和“文明”。
在他们崛起之前,蒙古依然是一个部族国家,他们通过家族和血统来确定哪个部落是他们的后裔。
现代思想中的“蒙古”作为一个国家是一个非常新且模糊的概念。
因为生活在中国的蒙古人比外蒙古更多。从基因角度来说,由蒙古人所组成的蒙古部族,比亚洲大陆的任何人都扩张得远得多得多。
但他们并没有声称把这些地方归入“蒙古”人或一个小群体之下。基于以下三个原因。
1.没有建立文化和身份;
2.对蒙古的部落祖先没有归属感;
3.现代蒙古族部落间的分歧。
这跟欧洲人涌入美洲定居不同,他们在那里创建了独立的国家如,美国、加拿大、澳大利亚等。
蒙古没能做到这点。但至少在基因扩张方面他们成功了,这位以后的成长留下了空间。
像韩国和日本这样拥有强大的原始蒙古部落血统的国家,就在中国的旁边成功地建立了民族国家。

Harrison Shone,Mostly Unemployed (1998-present)Updated Jul 19,2017People need to realize that justbecause their country controlled something hundreds of years ago doesnot mean that they have a legitimate claim to it now.If Mongolia can claim China,which they conquered by force, they may as well also claim the Stan countries,most of Russia, all of Korea, the caucuses, Iraq, Iran, the Levant, Turkey andall of Europe east of Poland, Hungary and Croatia. That is a full 9.27 millionmiles of land, which is two and a half times the size of the United States.Edit: This map has some minor inaccuracies and does not show thefull extent of the Mongol Empire. I just used it because it was the only one Icould find that uses modern borders.

Harrison Shone 大多数时候处于失业状态(1998-至今)
人们需要认识到,他们的国家过去有控制某些东西数百年不代表他们今天的声索就是合法的。
如果蒙古可以向中国声索土地——这个他们曾武力征服过的地方,他们同样可以向各个斯坦国家提出声索要求,包括俄罗斯大部,整个朝鲜半岛,高加索,伊拉克、伊朗、黎凡特、土耳其和整个欧洲东部的波兰、匈牙利和克罗地亚。这足足有927万的土地,这是美国土地面积的2.5倍。
PS:这张地图存在一些小错误,而且也没有完整展示整个蒙古帝国。我之所以还用这张图是因为这是我唯一能找到的现代边境地图了。

Can Zhang,Student of HistoryAnswered Dec 2,2015Mongolian independence referendum, 1945According to this official referendum, theMongolians voted overwhelmingly for leaving China.You can't then come back and claim China ifyou broke away from it in the first place, unless you claim the referendum wasrigged or unfair in some way, which... I don't see happening.

Can Zhang 历史的学生
《蒙古独立公投,1945年》——维基百科
基于这份官方公投,蒙古人压倒性的投票离开中国。
你不能这时候跑回来然后向中国声索领地,你已经第一时间分裂出去了,除非你声称这场公投有作弊不公正。。。。我没看到这种事儿有发生。

Anand NyamdavaaAug 27, 2017 · 2 upvotesitsnot exactly correct interpretation of history. Mongolia declared independencein December 29, 1911 from Manchu dynasty. In 1945 The Chinese communistgovernment has agreed to accept sovereignty if Mongolia does referendum onindependence. Upon finish Communist govenrment of China has accepted theresults. Of course the Kuomintang Government in Taiwan didn't accept Mongolia’sindependence until 1990s t

这不是对历史的正确解读。蒙古声称独立是在1911年12月29日,从满清独立。在1945年,中国CCPzf基于公投结果,同意承认了蒙古的主权地位。当然了,台湾的国民党zf不承认蒙古的独立,直到20世纪90年代之后。

Can ZhangAug 28, 2017Howdoes any of this change my conclusion?
Mongolialeft China, so she can’t then claim China as hers.

这有改变我的结论吗?
蒙古离开中国,所以她这时候不能向中国声索土地了。

Beforest Wangep 30 · 2 upvotesWhat?correct interpretation of history?
In1945, the Chinese communist party is just a insurgent groups. China was stillthe republic of China, and Kuomintang was still in Change. What the CCP saidcounts nothing. BTW, the referendum was also oversaw by the KuomintangGovernment. It has nothing to do with the ccp.Andit is true that Mongolia declared independence in December 29, 1911. from Qingdynasty not Manchu dynasty.

什么?正确的历史解读?
1945年,中国CCPzf不过还是一个起义的组织而已。中国依然是中华民国,而国民党那时依旧掌权。那时候CCP说话是不算数的。顺便说一句,这场独立公投国民党也有监视。这跟CCP毫无关系。
另外,蒙古是在1911年12月29号宣布从清朝独立,不是满清。

St.Fang, studied at South China University of Technology (2018)Answered Jan 8Of course, Mongolia should ownChina, Siberia, Central Asia. All of regions Genghis Khan conqured.So, please form a United Statesof Greater Mongolia.Western countries are unwillingto let it happen due to their hegemony consideration. I think we Asian shouldtry our best to revert the honor of Genghis Khan.So, do you dare?

St.Fang 在华南理工大学学习(2018)
哦当然了,蒙古可以拥有中国、西伯利亚、中亚。所有成吉思汗所征服过的地方。
所以,请成立一个大蒙古利亚合众国吧。
西方国家基于它们的霸权考量,不会让这样的事情发生的。我觉得我们亚洲需要尽其所能的恢复成吉思汗当年的荣耀。
所以,敢吗?

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