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Helsinki-Tallinn tunnel to get $16.8 billion from Touchstone


原创翻译:龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com 翻译:UP机器人 转载请注明出处

Finland 芬兰
Touchstone Capital Partners is a Chinese real estate financing group, in case anyone was wondering.



If you fly it takes under an hour from Helsinki to Stockholm


A tunnel would make those journeys possible without taking a flight.


lie: you really think flight time is travel time?


Estonia 爱沙尼亚
I swear to god if this tunnel gets built but rail baltica doesn't I'll lose all hope in any rationality.The channel tunnel which is considerably shorter, still after decades costs twice as much than the ferry between tln-hel. Maybe Im a pessimist but this whole project just doesn't seem like a smart investement.

我对天发誓,如果这条隧道建好了,但波罗的海铁路没有我将会失去一切理性的希望。英吉利海峡隧道要短得多,但几十年后的成本票价仍然是在赫塔之间摆渡的两倍。 也许我是一个悲观主义者,但是这整个项目看起来并不是一个明智的投资。


Oh come on, we had a metro line in Budapest that was delayed 17 times and eventually opened 12 years after it was promised. Oh and also it was one of the most expensive metros ever built, with a total length of an incredible 7kms...

得了吧,我们在布达佩斯有一条地铁线路,延误了17次,最终在承诺的12年后才开通。 而且它还是有史以来最昂贵的地铁之一,令人难以置信总长度为7公里... ..。

Similar here in Finland: they're still building a nuclear reactor that was supposed to be ready in 2009 and it's become the second most expensive building in the world

芬兰也有类似的情况: 他们仍在建造一座原计划于2009年完工的核反应堆,现在它已经成为世界上第二昂贵的建筑。

You need an expensive building which is delayed .. They're still working on the airport BER in Berlin which is just delayed by 7 years so far and will cost about 10 billions. I mean it's "just" an airport and they're not able to build that.

你需要一座造价昂贵的大楼,而这座建筑物已经延期了。 他们还在研究柏林的机场,目前已经推迟了7年,耗资约100亿美元。 我的意思是,它"只是"一个机场,他们都没有能力建造。

Vesterbacka, the guy basically putting all of this together, has said himself that there has been discussion in Europe about not wanting too much Chinese money. I wonder how much backing he could have gotten for the project, and the projects that will come alongside the tunnel, if he could have gone all in on Chinese money. I guess it's also a better look for the project when there are western investors too, and not only Chinese ones.

基本上把所有这些都放在一起的韦斯特巴卡表示,欧洲已经在讨论不要太多中国资金的问题。 我想知道,如果他能全部投入中国的资金,他本可以为这个项目以及隧道旁边的项目获得多少支持。 我想,如果这个项目也有西方投资者,而且不仅仅是中国投资者,那么它看起来也会更好。


Finland 芬兰
They want chinese investment on the terms both countries foreign policy establishment can scrutinize and like. Not some private venture they don't have full hold over.This has security implications, which means things will be complex and governments will assert their dominance over that domain and anything related. As pointed out in the article.

他们希望得到中国的投资,条件是两国的外交政策制定者都能仔细审查和喜欢。 而不是一些他们没有完全控制的私人企业。这涉及到安全问题,这意味着事情将会很复杂,政府将会在这个领域和任何相关的事情上维护他们的权威。 正如文章中所指出的。

Maybe Vesterbacka gets a finders fee for the chinese money for the public project, if the chinese stick around when they get the real low down from the planning and government experts on exactly how massively cumbersome, long and unprofitable the project will be.


So depends how much smoke and mirrors Vesterbacka has been selling the chinese, if they stick around. Permitting alone is like minimum 5 years process before single stone is turned on the construction. This without the governments saying nope to the permits. The various reports and studies will just take glacial amounts of time on project of this magnitude.

因此,这取决于维斯特巴卡向中国放了了多少烟雾弹(如果他们留下来的话)。 单凭许可证进行施工至少需要5年的时间。 政府对许可证没有任何异议。 各种各样的报告和研究将只需要大量的时间。

Denmark 丹麦
One of the problems of Chinese money is not that they'll get control of whatever project is, it's that they will have information about critical infrastructure and that they might give this information to other countries cough Russia cough.



Germany 德国
This is the sort of project I'd be happy to see the EU (co-)finance - large infrastructure investments (or for that matter small ones too) connecting EU countries closer together. Hell, might as well add a highspeed rail line for Tallinn-Riga-Vilnius-Warsaw.

我很乐意看到欧盟(共同)融资——大型基础设施投资(或者说小型基础设施投资)将欧盟国家更紧密地联系在一起。 该死,不如为塔林-里加-维尔纽斯-华沙增加一条高速铁路线。

Germany 德国
Looks interesting, although there seem to be issues in regards to falsified profitability calculations...although personally I have a strong bias towards especially rail investments, given that if done right (strategically well placed tracks which can later be upgraded to higher speeds/capacity) they can be real longterm investments.

看起来很有意思,尽管在伪造盈利能力方面似乎存在一些问题... ... 因为如果做的好(战略位置合适的铁路,以后可以升级到更高的速度 / 运力) ,它们可以成为真正的长期投资。

Finland 芬兰
Oh no, Peter Vesterbacka and his red hoodie are trying to sell us to the Chinese.If we really want a tunnel, we should fund it ourselves.

哦,不,彼得· 韦斯特巴卡想把我们卖给中国人。如果我们真的想要一条隧道,我们应该自己出资。

Why? Our studies show that their plans are not realistic, so why should we fund such a risky project? We get a tunnel, they get the debt.

为什么? 我们的研究表明他们的计划是不现实的,那么我们为什么要资助这样一个有风险的项目呢? 我们挖一条隧道,他们就欠下债务。

The article itself states that the government feasability study predict completion over 15 years later than what this group predicts. In fact, Vesterbacka and his group basically estimate that construction would be complete before construction could even begin according to the "official" estimate.

文章本身指出,政府可行性研究预测的完工时间比这个群体预测的要晚15年。 事实上,韦斯特巴卡和他的团队基本上估计,在根据"官方"估计建设开始之前,工程将会完工。

inland 芬兰
Well, then it's better to not build it. My thinking is, either we build it ourselves or not at all. No need to be part of belt and road.

好吧,那么最好不要建造它。 我的想法是,要么我们自己建,要么根本不建。 没有必要成为一带一路的一部分。

What concrete problems do you see happening as a result of a Chinese company building a rail tunnel in Finland? I hope you can think of some if you’re that ready to abandon a major infrastructure project over this.

你认为中国公司在芬兰修建铁路隧道会带来哪些具体问题? 我希望你能想到一些,如果你已经准备好放弃一个主要的基础设施项目。

It is not a coincidence China is funding megaprojects worldwide. Do you think they are giving the money out of their good hearts? China expects something in return. China wants influence and they are buying it, amongst other methods.

中国正在全球范围内资助大型项目,这并非巧合。 你认为他们捐钱是出于好心吗? 中国希望得到一些回报。 中国想要影响力,他们正在购买以及其他方法获得。


Romania 罗马尼亚
China has a huge trade surplus. They must do something with the money. Initially, they started borrowing it to the American government, but recently they decided it's risky to keep all their eggs in one basket.

中国有巨大的贸易顺差。 他们必须用这笔钱做点什么。 最初,他们开始借钱给美国政府,但最近他们认为把所有的鸡蛋放在一个篮子里是有风险的。

Estonia 爱沙尼亚
Im ready to abandon that infrastructure project even without the chinese side. Honestly the plan doesn't seem necessary, it would probably be way to expensive to use, especially from the Estonian side.

即使没有中方的参与,我也准备放弃那个基础设施项目。 老实说,这个计划似乎没有必要,它可能会是一个昂贵的使用方式,特别是从爱沙尼亚方面。

Estonia 爱沙尼亚
there will probably be a time for it, just not now, if you look around the world this project would be pretty record breaking. Such a tunnel would be good to connect two several million pop. areas into one but Tallinn and Helsinki aren't that big. No finnish person would really come to Tallinn to work as the wages are several times lower and Estonians in Tallinn wouldn't use it to commute every morning as the cost will be higher than their earnings. It would make finnish tourism in Tallinn faster but 2h to ~40min isn't really that worth it if you use it once a year, the ship will probably still be more comfortable.

可能会有一个时间,只是不是现在,如果你环顾世界,这个项目将是相当破纪录的。 这样一条隧道将有利于连接两个数百万的城市。 但是塔林和赫尔辛基并没有那么大。 没有哪个芬兰人会真的来塔林工作,因为工资要低好几倍,而且塔林的爱沙尼亚人也不会每天早上乘车上下班,因为成本会高于他们的收入。 这会让芬兰人到塔林旅游的速度更快,但是如果你每年去一次的话,2小时缩短到40分钟的时间并不是很值得,船上可能会更舒服。

E: I guess what really pisses me off is that during this years general election all parties were onboard with the tunnel yet the railway was a controversial issue although it would connect us to the rest of Europe and could actually be used for cargo transport.



Sweden 瑞典
Yeah, this would likely be an investment with a low ROI, but a potential for hearts and minds in Finland and Estonia.


That last part, I can agree with you. China has a habit of investing in countries and when they cannot pay, get 50 year rental from ports and similar strategic locations. (Though reddit people are retarded. I got downvoted like hell for asking a normal question )

最后那部分,我同意你的看法。 中国有在国家投资的习惯,当他们无法支付时,从港口和类似的战略地点获得50年的租金。 (尽管红迪网上的人都是弱智。 我因为问了一个正常的问题而被否决了

Finland 芬兰
Personally I don't see a problem with it as a principle. Unless the money comes with something shady, I can't think of a problem, especially as a minority shareholder.

就我个人而言,我不认为这是一个原则问题。 除非这笔钱有什么见不得人的地方,否则我想不出有什么问题,尤其是作为一个小股东。

Estonia 爱沙尼亚
It's fine in concept as long as it's kept to a safe enough level. It can become a problem if they gain too much influence with it.Can you really imagine that someone has the nerve to say something against the Chinese?

只要保持在一个足够安全的水平,它的概念是好的。 如果他们从中获得了太多的影响力,这可能会成为一个问题。你真的能想象有人有胆量说中国人的坏话吗?

I'm sure the Chinese will withdraw from this once they hear what officials have publicly said: there won't be a private tunnel, either the national tunnel happens or nothing will.

我敢肯定,一旦中国政府听到官员们公开表示: 不会建设私人隧道,要么修建国家隧道,要么什么都没有,他们就会撤出。

Finland nor Estonia as a state has the money to build the tunnel, never will. So the only option is to have it funded with money from EU and private investors.

芬兰和爱沙尼亚一个国家有钱修建隧道,永远都不会。 因此,唯一的选择是让欧盟和私人投资者为其提供资金。

Finland 芬兰
Yeah but this isn't about funding the government backed tunnel. This is completely separate project. Which just won't get permits. Chinese want to pour money in Helsinki-Tallinn tunnel? They pour it to the government backed project or nowhere. Under terms Finland and Estonia find acceptable.

是的,但这不是为了资助政府支持的隧道。 这是一个完全独立的项目。 这样就拿不到许可了。 中国人想在赫塔隧道里大量投资? 他们把钱倾注到政府支持的项目上或者什么地方。 根据条款,芬兰和爱沙尼亚认为可以接受。

Denmark 丹麦
Usually these kind of projects are paid by the end-users. And capital usually comes from government backed loans. There might be a bit of money from the EU or the national governments themselves. For instance, the Fehmarn Belt fixed link will get a little less than a billion Euros as a subsidy which is around 7 per cent of the cost.

通常这类项目是由最终用户支付的。 资本通常来自政府支持的贷款。 欧盟或各国政府本身可能会提供一些资金。 例如,欧洲费马恩海峡大桥银行将得到略低于10亿欧元的补贴,约为成本的7% 。

Estonia 爱沙尼亚
The tunnel is too ridiculously expensive to be funded by government-backed loans. It's almost twice the length of the Channel Tunnel, it would be longest tunnel in the world, and instead of London-Paris-Brussels, it connects two cities with a 600k and 400k population.If EU or foreign private investors would want to pay for it, why not... but governments of Estonia and Finland should not put any significant money into it.

这条隧道太贵了,不能用政府支持的贷款来筹集资金。 它的长度几乎是英吉利海峡隧道的两倍,将成为世界上最长的隧道。它连接着两个人口分别为60万和40万的城市,而不是 伦敦-巴黎-布鲁塞尔。如果欧盟或外国私人投资者愿意为此买单,为什么不呢... ... 但是爱沙尼亚和芬兰政府不应该为此投入大量资金。

Denmark 丹麦
Oh. I just looked it up. Seems like the project is not feasible at all: we only get 50 cent back from one euro spent, and that would include the EU sponsoring 40 % of the costs.Maybe just stick to the ferries for now. Make them electric to reduce the environmental impacts.

哦。 我只是查了一下。 看起来这个项目根本不可行: 我们只能从花费的一欧元中得到50% 的回报,其中包括欧盟资助的40% 的费用。现在还是坐渡轮吧。 使它们电动化,以减少对环境的影响。

Damn I really wanted to see this tunnel but I guess not in this life if it's left to the governments


That's not how governments operate in the EU. They don't just say "nope" to projects like that. There are avenues by which projects are developed, different stages of planning, permits etc. The company has started many of its applications in both Estonia and Finland and will proceed with them as per law.

这不是欧盟各国政府的运作方式。 他们不会对这样的项目说"不"。 开发项目有多种途径,规划的不同阶段,许可证等等。 该公司已经开始在爱沙尼亚和芬兰提出许多申请,并将按照法律进行。

Yes they do, when the project has cross border security implications. It is one thing to do such project inside country in accordance with the permitting, rules and government then not being much in place to say "nope" on legitimate project following laws.


Once it goes cross border government will assert their foreign diplomacy sovereignty and say "You make no cross border project without our and our neighbor governments foreign policy and political approval". It has security, border control and diplomatic implications. At which point it isn't a simple matter of in country business regulation anymore.

一旦它跨越边境,政府将维护他们的外交主权,并说:"没有我们和我们的邻国政府的外交和政治批准,你不能做任何跨越边境的项目"。 它具有安全、边境控制和外交影响。


Chinese overlords are coming for Finland.


It's usually either the Chinese or some Canadian pension fund.


NOT in favour of tax havens
The tunnel not being profitable as an entity doesn't mean it's not worth it financially.

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